modified thin-set mortar is not recommended to set ceramic and stone tile, including large format tiles, over the KERDI membrane. How do I align things in the following tabular environment? This will include installing its components, such as drain plate and drain collar, as well as Kerdi Band for further protection of seams and corners. ps, now that you don't need it anymore you can throw that useless cheap piece of crap magnesium float my way. RedGard, on the other hand, is a liquid waterproofing membrane made by Custom Building Products. If you can avoid that, the demo would be ~easy enough to maybe have some friends who'd work for beer come over and help you knock it out. We apply the thinset the recommended trowel, can't remember what size off the top of my head, in small sections and by the time my husband hands my the piece of membrane the thinset is not skinned over but certainly dry. Should I redo this wall to avoid a mold sandwich? Backerboard plus a waterproofing membrane like Redgard is all that is needed for tub surrounds with thinset then tile. That would tell him where the edge of the framing needs to be. Ultimately, the decision between a Schlter system or a cement board comes down to the particular application and the goals the user has for the floor system. Caulk the gap. When it comes to installation, a Schlter system is typically easier to install than a cement board, and it also allows for more design freedom as it does not require a traditional waterproof layer. When it comes to selecting thinset for cement board, there are a few important factors to consider. A 1/2-inch thick, 3 x 5 foot sheet weighs just 7-1/2 pounds, compared with 45 pounds for a similar size sheet of cement board. Following the instructions for the product being used and ensuring that all of the necessary steps are followed will help to ensure a successful installation. If you want added info there's an old Kerdi thread here. When it comes to applying KERDI, however, it is advised to use a regular thinset that includes portland cement as its main component. However, a cement board is generally easier and less expensive to replace if a repair is needed. On the downside, the cement boards are heavy, somewhat difficult to cut and can leave abrasive sandy crumbs that can damage tubs and shower bases if youre not careful. The gridlines printed on the surface are beneficial for the installation process, also allowing for quick, neat cuts with a utility knife. To line niche shelves, for instance. "..2) the kerdi band isn't stuck flat -- the edges in some spots are wavy. Why you use cement board? We waterproof the outside the hardiboard in 99% of the install with something like redgard. Though, each product comes with its own individual characteristics, and pros and cons. The difference between the phonemes /p/ and /b/ in Japanese. Like the example above. Kerdi board, on the other hand, is an extruded polystyrene foam panel. I've never had a failure. Not everyone knows how to do mud and lathe it's so old school plus it wears you out, ive been a setter for 27 yrs and I have yet to go back to one of my showers I installed using perma base or durock, with a liner, i have started using waterproofing such as redguard or aqua-defense. It may take more than 1 beer:). A lot of folks like using cement board but it's heavy and requires a waterproofing membrane over it. There are many different types of underlayment to choose from, but they all serve the same purpose. Any recommendations? The thin-set mortar should be mixed to a fairly dry consistency and then spread on the surface with a 1/4 inch square notch trowel. Step 7: Cut the Tile. It looks like you have Kerdi installed on the floor and not Kerdi Board. A 1/2-inch thick, 3 x 5 foot sheet weighs just 7-1/2 pounds, compared with 45 pounds for a similar size sheet of cement board. Why are Suriname, Belize, and Guinea-Bissau classified as "Small Island Developing States"? This allows the cement to properly hydrate, resulting in To ensure the floor is clean, wipe it with a wet sponge. you should still water proof with a liquid membrane product like RedGuard. Browse other questions tagged, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site. If cement board had been used, most likely the damage would have been much less that what I have to deal with now. Schluter Kerdi-Shower-T/-TS/-TT 48 in. As such, many homeowners and professionals find themselves wondering whether Kerdi Board or cement board is the better tile substrate. DensShield is one common brand. Both may be effective substrates, but Kerdi Board boasts significant advantages. Thanks Paul! Houzz utilise des cookies et d'autres technologies de suivi similaires pour personnaliser mon exprience utilisateur, me proposer du contenu pertinent et amliorer ses produits et services. We installed cement board on the walls, and today when we attempted to apply the Kerdi membrane we could not get it to adhere. The shower is ready for tile. When screwed to the framing, thin strips of cement board fracture more easily than thin strips of fiber-cement. We are no longer supporting IE (Internet Explorer) as we strive to provide site experiences for browsers that support new web standards and security practices. Foam-core tile backing board has two big advantages over other backer boards. The Kerdi/Daltile TS underlayments do have some valid applications such as in steam shower installations where a bullet proof vapor barrier is required. Using cement board and a sheet membrane . You just need a hammer and wonderbar for the walls. It is important to seal any imperfections in the drywall to ensure a long-lasting installation and to minimize water infiltration. Given the complexity, its easy to see why even experienced tile setters avoid dry-pack mortar and use backer board instead when they can. ), Schluter SET, ALL-SET, FAST-SET or an unmodified thin-set mortar is recommended. Send us an email: , What type of thin-set mortar should I use when installing Schluter, Using a Prefabricated Shower Tray and Ramp. Moisture resistant can cause similar problems, and there is absolutely no advantage to it. Slap it up comb it out, leave every ridge tall and perfect. While cement board is a reliable tile underlayment, it isnt completely waterproof only water-resistant. I think I'll try using the thinned mixture of Redgard and then try the Kerdi membrane again. A hundred times better to have too much before you comb than too little. I will say that to is easier to put the membrane over drywall than cement board. Thanks to all for the feedback. You peeled it off? Removing bathroom tile from cement backerboard, Transition from KERDI membrane backed, to not backed. It works well, is what Schluter recommends and I've never had an issue with it. This will prevent water from entering from behind the membrane, and will provide a more secure waterproof layer. The great thing about Kerdi Board is that it is lightweight and easier to maneuver. The Ditra uncoupling design is lightweight, durable, and minimizes the possibility of cracked tile and grout. ;). Cement board comes both in 1/4-inch-thick and 1/2-inch-thick versions. Yes, Schluter membranes can go over cement board. Kerdi can be installed first on drywall or cement board. Fiber cement board is a variation of cement board that is made from compressed cement and sand and reinforced with wood fibers throughout. Learn more about Stack Overflow the company, and our products. In normal residential use I wouldn't worry about it. What was the indicator that let you know that spritzing was not enough, and that you needed to 'sponge' the Hardi? Bathroom closets are often catch-alls for anything and everything remotely related to self-care. In . In order to determine which tile underlayment is right for your project, you need to know which issue youre trying to solve whether its preventing subfloor cracks from transferring to the tile, soundproofing, moisture protection, or providing more rigidity to the tile. Once the adhesive has been applied and has had time to properly cure, then the KERDI membrane can be applied to the wall. The main types of cement board you could encounter are Fibre Reinforced Cement (FRC) board and gypsum board. DIYers on this forum seem to have nothing but problems with Hardi. They can be installed on any type of support and can even be used to create partitions, with no structural support required. The colour is different. Cement board is typically used in wet areas, such as bathrooms and areas with a lot of moisture, because it is waterproof and provides a level of protection from water damage and long-term moisture exposure. Ceramic and porcelain tile, more than almost any other surface material, need a stable . Porcelain and ceramic tiles are stiff and hard materials, so if they are installed on an unlevel or bouncy surface they are highly susceptible to cracking. It is also essential that cement board joints and fasteners be sealed and waterproofed with the Kerdi Fix sealant to help prevent water from leaking into the wall and floor cavities. If you are good with a trowel and understand how to set up and use screeds as a guide for leveling or forming the mortar, pouring a traditional mortar bed may be a good alternative to tile backer board, especially on uneven or sloping floors. Once its cleaned, use caulk to seal all of the seams where the cement board meets the walls. The cement board needs to be clean, free of debris, and dry. Cement board is readily available and relatively inexpensive (about $10 for a 3 x 5-ft. sheet). I don't want to use the Ditra membrane product but rather tiles directly over the cement boards. This will ensure that the coating sticks to the cement board. And we are using a drippy mixture, it slides off the trowel. document.getElementById("ak_js_1").setAttribute("value",(new Date()).getTime()); Your email address will not be published. I think it is engrained in me to do that so I forget to mention it. Browse other questions tagged, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site. For all the substrates listed in this Handbook (e.g., gypsum board, cement backerboard, etc. x 33 ft. Waterproofing Membrane: Kerdi-Board 1/2 in. Kerdi-Shower-T/-TS/-TT is a prefabricated sloped shower tray with integrated Kerdi waterproofing. . x 60 in. Start by cleaning the cement board with a mineral oil soap; this will help reduce mold and mildew growth throughout the life of the shower. 1. While cement board and grout are not waterproof, Kerdi is and can even be directly installed over drywall. @DMoore- OK, I agree that with redguard it would be redundant. To properly seal a cement board for a shower, its important to first properly prepare the surface. What are the differences between "paperless drywall" and "cement board"? He would take his rough opening measurement and subtract the thicknesses of the tile, the cement board, and in his unique install method the purpleboard. You have to seal every little hole in the floor so the underlayment doesnt seep into spaces below. I have to redo my tub surround due to moisture leaks and failing grout. This is a bit difficult to answer as it depends on the particular application for the floor system. First, felt paper is stapled to the floor and covered with expanded metal lath. Being a Los Angeles resident, Jessica spends a lot of her time looking for her next DIY project and sharing her love for home design. Yup! Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4HjHT6_cUo, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEt6irjJCI0, My master suite addition & full bath to 1/2 bath renovation. the cost of the tile job. To line niche shelves, for instance. When installed, Kerdi Board creates a substrate that is level, flat, square, plumb, and dimensionally stable. However if installed on drywall it is only protecting one side. ", Signed,Never Hung Kerdi A Day In Her Life. Once its applied, the last step is to follow up the waterproof coating with a waterproof sealant. Also - use a good thinset. With cement board as a substrate, the key is to ensure proper installation of the membrane. Cement board is a good, reliable backer board that works well on both floors and walls. This is often accomplished by filling any holes and cracks in the wall with appropriate spackling or patching material. Kerdi membrane is a waterproofing material that is designed to be used in wet areas such as bathrooms and showers before tiles are installed. I think the first one I used was cheap and that was part of the problem. Even the tiling subs have moved away from mortar walls because of the labor cost and lack of craftsmen in the industry. To ensure that the Kerdi is completely dry prior to tiling, inspect the inside of the membrane for any signs of moisture or condensation. Anyone who has done more than 1 shower shouldn't start without knowing that. The cement board can also become weakened and start to flake away when it absorbs moisture, causing ugly spots and patches to start appearing on the wall. 173 upvotes. FRC board tends to be more moisture-resistant than gypsum board and is best suited for outdoor projects such as showers or tub surrounds. Think about movement. Kerdi Board is expensive, but I can justify it because it saves time, and it's a joy to use. Kerdi's systems are fairly reputable. Is it suspicious or odd to stand by the gate of a GA airport watching the planes? #2. What can a lawyer do if the client wants him to be acquitted of everything despite serious evidence? With that said, the key benefits of Kerdi Board include: While cement board may be the most common and widely-known tile substrate, Kerdi Board is giving it a run for its money. 120 sq feet including the floor. Cement board is the industry standard when it comes to tile substrates and the most preferred among professionals when installing porcelain or ceramic tile. As fiber cement board is similar to regular cement board, it makes sense to choose the one that is cheaper or more readily available. Why are physically impossible and logically impossible concepts considered separate in terms of probability? The completed assembly takes the place of more traditional backer board when installed over 3/4-inch wood subfloors. Depending on your project and the specific cement board you are using, you will want to select a thinset appropriate for both.if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[468,60],'remodelormove_com-large-leaderboard-2','ezslot_15',158,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-remodelormove_com-large-leaderboard-2-0'); The two primary criteria to help guide your selection are the type of cement board you are using and whether you are installing it indoors or outdoors. The Kerdi is essentially replacing the backerboard. When it comes to using thinset with Schluter products, the Schluter-Systems website recommends using unmodified thin-set mortars specifically designed for use with Schluter membranes. To put things into perspective, consider that a tile floor is made up of three layers: the subfloor, the underlayment, and the tile surface you walk on. Sloped Shower Tray KST1220/1525 - The Home Depot. Whether or not you need a Kerdi membrane is a factor of use. Install the Schluter Kerdi membrane over the backer board using the correct mortar. On the other hand, a Schlter system offers improved thermal insulation, which can help to reduce heating costs. The taping knife at a low angle makes an enormous difference, and I'm very grateful for that hint. The curb doesn't have to be any wider than a 2x4. There is definitely skill & planning required to doit right. If you want a cement board, use Durock or Wonderboard. I have corrugated metal shower surround & grab bars. The Schlter system tends to be more durable than a cement board, but it also depends on the particular application and the weather. Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. I also used a larger sized trowel than the one recommend by Schluter. However, you do still have to take care to waterproof the seams and the fastener penetrations to create a waterproof assembly. The back side of the drywall fails and it is just as bad or worse than if it had an issue on the tile side. This liquid waterproofing solution does more than keep water away, it also promotes tile adhesion and prevents cracking. The big issue with cement board is that the thinset will skin over really quickly. When it comes to tile underlayment, your options can be categorized into three main classifications, each suitable for different tiling circumstances: Although cement board is the most commonly used underlayment for tile, Kerdi board is growing in popularity as a multifunctional tile substrate. True cement board (Durck, Wonderboard) is my first choice as a tile or Kerdi backer. This is a very effective and popular method of installing tile, and one that ensures the tile doesnt crack. What Is the Difference Between 'Man' And 'Son of Man' in Num 23:19? Your real issues are the lack of proper corners on this shower. It allows you to easily and quickly create tile-ready elements in bathtub surrounds and platforms, vanities, showers, shelving, and much more. When I tried putting up the first sheets, which were only 36" x 39", and even though I had SOAKED the hardi, to the point water was pooling on the floor, the thinset was already drying before I got the Kerdi up, and I couldn't get it to adhere properly no matter how hard I tried. And how do you keep too much water from interfering with the adhesion in the second scenario?Thanks!! Is it plausible for constructed languages to be used to affect thought and control or mold people towards desired outcomes? Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. With Wedi products, the compound curves are easy to produce quickly. Applying a conventional cement backer board to such a structure is almost impossible. First Kerdi can be installed on drywall or cement board. It is important to waterproof Hardie board to make it more water-resistant, as well as to protect the materials from the elements. If you choose to use Aquadefense as a shower pan liner, be sure to continue it up the walls at least 6", tying into your waterproofing on the walls. Everyone knows brick and stucco, but what about fiber cement and metal? Greenboard is the same as regular drywall. On top of that, fiber cement board is even more brittle than standard cement board, so you have to be extra careful to keep screws at least an inch from the edge to avoid breaking the board. Installation instructions vary depending on the type of Kerdi membrane being used, but typically the membrane is applied directly to a clean, dry plywood surface that is free from dust, dirt, and other debris. Or will the Kerdi membrane (with seams taped with kerdi band) prevent each board from moving independently? Just wondering how effective is the tile on kerdi membrane vs the traditional cement backboard where tiles are glued directly to the drywall? You absolutely need to include some sort of substrate (cement board, green board, regular drywall) with the Schluter-Kerdi waterproofing kit. With so many different types of underlayment to choose from, it can be hard to decide which is best for your project. Re: Kerdi on shower curbs. Out of curiosity, why are any of you suggesting backerboard at all? What do you mean it doesn't adhere? I have used kerdi, and I have applied it over cement board. I used this to seal a 3 1/2 by 6 1/2 foot shower with 7 foot walls. We tried adding water to the thinset, we tried using a larger notch trowel, but nothing seems to make the Kerdi stick. Additionally, the use of modified thinset with KERDI could lead to cracks and other issues down the line as the modified thinset can shrink and pull away from the KERDI membrane over time. The site is called floorelf.com. . First, you would waterproof with your favorite liquid waterproofing membrane of . The product involves an extruded polystyrene foam panel, with specialized reinforcement materials on both sides. Keep in mind, that, just to be safe, most professionals choose to install a waterproofing membrane on top of the cement board when installing in wet locations like tub surrounds or showers. BTW the older Kerdi thread referencedwas excellent. Waterproofing cement board is relatively simple and there are several different waterproofing products available. Euler: A baby on his lap, a cat on his back thats how he wrote his immortal works (origin? There is no cutting or fitting of boards, and a mortar bed is good for leveling and flattening uneven or out-of-level floors, which are common in old houses. I trust it and have never had a callback. Yes, KERDI membrane will stick to cement board. Cement board is particularly vulnerable to water damage, so waterproofing can help protect it and help it last longer. . I ended up putting up a thin, skim-coat of thinset all over the hardi board, letting it dry, and then putting up the kerdi. First, its super lightweight compared with the rest. Kerdi does admit that you can use cement board. Another advantage is that the polyisocyanurate core of foam boards is waterproof. They are absorbed into the surface material and help keep moisture away from the substrate surface. Step 6: Choosing the Next Tile. How do I connect these two faces together? We just went through a learning curve on the Kerdi and Hardi. Shouldn't take too long, maybe an hour or so. Bulk update symbol size units from mm to map units in rule-based symbology. RedGard On Hardibacker Board. My understanding is that Schluter-Kerdi, being a sheet topical membrane, recommends just going with regular drywall instead of cement board but you can certainly use cement board as the substrate. A quality underlayment will also serve as a waterproof barrier between the subfloor and the tile surface. Site design / logo 2023 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA. KERDI was developed as a waterproofing membrane to be used in . It's not a matter of trusting the Kerdi. Since the existing wall board will be removed, I'd prefer to go a little extra and install a water proof cement board type base so the tile has a solid substrate even if it were to get wet . Preparing drywall for KERDI membrane requires a few important steps to ensure a successful application. Most cement-based thin-set mortars are suitable; however, it is important to check the manufacturers instructions to ensure that the product is approved for use with Schluter systems. Do new devs get fired if they can't solve a certain bug? They are available in thicknesses of 3/16, 3/8, 1/2, 3/4, 1, 1-1/2, and 2 (5, 9, 12.5, 19, 25, 38, and 50 mm). Finally, it is important to remember that any thin-set that has been exposed to moisture must be replaced. I like to use a garden sprayer to keep the thirsty Kerdi wet. What to use to flatten and prep wall before installing Schluter Kerdi membrane for tiling? LONDON. The type of bonding mortar used to apply KERDI must be suitable for the substrate and must penetrate and engage the membrane fleece. Hardi is definitely a "thirsty" substrate but will work, even without a primer of RedGard. Hardie board is a cement-based siding product that is water-resistant, but not waterproof. It is a fast process that is hard to mess up if you do it right. The thickness of the tile is important, and should be known, but not because it changes the method of building. To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. Kerdi membrane can be used on cement board, drywall, and, as you may have guessed- greenboard. In my. The type of bonding mortar used to apply KERDI must be suitable for the substrate and must penetrate and engage the membrane fleece.
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